From the Greatness of God Toward a Christlife

My girls and my brother's girls encountering the Cloud Gate,
the Chicago Bean, for the first time on their first trip to Chicago.

Kids being born.

An amazing sunset.

A majestic waterfall.

A towering mountain.

Each an opportunity to encounter God.

Sometimes people who live in the mountain become immune to the majesty right outside their window. Yet when those of us from the plains go and see the mountain, it's incredible. 

I remember taking Isaac to Detroit for the first time when he was younger, he was amazed with the city. He had seen it for the first time. But for someone who lives in Detroit, it is just another day in the city.  

When it comes to God, we live our ordinary lives with extraordinary God-things around us all the time.  And the extraordinary begins to be missed. And we forget the greatness of God because we are surrounded by it. God doesn't want to be confined to just the extraordinary things like sunsets, waterfall, and the birth of children. He wants to be part of your life in the ordinary things.

God wants to change the world. He grabs people's attention through wonderful, and sometimes tragic, things, but it is our responsibility to also live the countercultural Christlife that grabs people's attention. We love when others would hate. We live to serve others when others live for themselves. We bring selflessness into a world of selfishness. If those of us who claim to be Christians started living as Christians rather than just giving intellectual assent to the idea of Jesus, then we would start showing the world the equivalent of an amazing sunset rather than a dark, stormy sky. A beautiful waterfall rather than a raging, destructive flood.

This can't happen through our own efforts; it comes through tapping into the strength God provides. God wants to be glorified. God deserves to be glorified. It's not for His sake; it's for ours. When He is glorified and we see Him for who He really is, our lives will never be the same. We can overcome that addictive sin, love the unlovable person in our life, stop the destructive habits, and give sacrificially. These things will be easy to do if we encounter God, allow His Spirit to lead us, and continue in His strength.

None of these things will happen if we don't really encounter God. If we use church just for a place to raise up moral kids, we won't encounter God. If we go to church so we can feel like we have done our religious work for the week, we won't encounter God. If we do spiritual things to be seen by others, we won't encounter God.

We must seek God - passionately, desperately, wholeheartedly, and with every ounce of our being. When we seek, we will find. When we find, we will be changed.

Our change starts with God. Overcoming our struggles starts with God. Enduring hardship starts with God. We just have to get a glimpse of God, a real glimpse, and we will change. If you have something in your life that you feel that you can't change, which we all do if we are honest with our spiritual lives, then we should draw closer to God. He is wonderful. He is all-powerful. He is eternal. He is beautiful. His presence brings us to our knees and causes us to see our truly sinful state.

God is glorified through the beauty of His creation that He has called good. And He wants to be glorified in the greatest love of His creation, you. He loves you and wants others to see His glory through you.

The most important thing that can happen in our life is that we truly experience God. The real God. Not the imaginary God that we make up. It's not getting married, having a baby, or even being physical being born. It's encountering the life-changing God.

We are the biggest obstacle to the most important thing. We get in the way of us truly seeing God. We keep too busy to notice Him. We justify away His greatness. The fact is that we live in this modern world and can explain things. We can explain how the beauty of the colors in a sunset happen scientifically. We can explain the science behind a baby being conceived and born. We can explain how mountains were formed. But that doesn't mean that we still shouldn't be in awe of them. That doesn't mean that we shouldn't be in awe of their Creator.

We look at the Sistine Chapel and can still say that Michelangelo was a great artist.

We can hear the Brandenburg Concerto and marvel at the talent of Bach.

Or let me put it in more modern terms.

We can watch an episode of Breaking Bad and really appreciate the fact that the writers, actors, and directors have mastered their craft.

We can play Minecraft and appreciate the talent and vision of Notch.

We can hear a song by our favorite artist - for me an Avett Brothers song - and appreciate their touching lyrics and creativity.

We can see an amazing car and know that there are great engineers that designed it.

We marvel at an amazingly designed building and appreciate the architects and craftsmen.

Most of us here can't duplicate these accomplishments. And that is why we appreciate them. We can explain how they are done, but that doesn't take away their marvel. Their beauty.

And when it comes to the creation of God, we may be able to explain how it is beautiful, how the rivers were shaped, and all that jazz. But that doesn't take away the Creator's beauty. His majesty. His glory.

God is indescriblable. I can't give you a definition that can encapsulate Him. I can't develop a theology that encloses Him. Too often, Christians contain God within the Bible. We turn the book that is supposed to unleash Him into this world into a cage. But God is greater than any man-made cage. He will not be contained. He's greater than any one song of praise we may sing. He is vast. He is majestic. And we can't completely describe Him. If we would really take time out of our day to worship God, to bask in His presence, to understand just a little bit of Who He is and what He wants from us, to silently bow in His presence, then we will experience a renewed sense of awe. We will be humbled, and we will be changed. Our lives will be changed. Our communities will be changed. Our families will be changed. Everything will be changed.

Zecharias encountered God and his lips were sealed until the birth of his son. Bringing about a changed life that brought incredible things.

Isaiah encountered God and went forth. Another changed life that brought incredible things.

Moses encountered God at the burning bush. Another changed life that brought incredible things.

Paul on the road to Damascus. Another changed life that brought incredible things.

When we encounter God, we will be changed. And maybe incredible things will follow. But if they don't, who cares? We just encountered God. And that's enough. More than enough.

Are We To Hate? A Bible Study on Hatred

On May 26, 2012, Lady Gaga twittered, "There is nothing Holy about Hatred."

Except God did hate. Jesus even hated. So either Lady Gaga is right and the Bible is wrong. Or maybe Lady Gaga is not a good source to get one's worldview from.

So what should we hate? Because if we are honest with ourselves, everyone hates things. Even those who claim they don't hate anything, hate. Those who want peace and love hate war. Those who preach tolerance hate intolerance.

And what should we be hated for? Because let's face it, people are going to hate us. We just need to make sure that we are hated for all the right reasons.

Unfortunately, Christians often hate the wrong things and/or go about being against them in the wrong way. This discredits the message of Jesus and the work of the kingdom. But God's kingdom can and will overcome. The key is that we work toward being the people God wants us to be and continually strive to reflect his glory here on earth as it is in heaven.

Each one of us will make mistakes. That's what grace is for. We are all hypocrites in some way. If that wasn't true, the cross would not be needed.  There is no reason for any of us to think we are better than anyone else because we are all fallen sinners. Living in the realization that we are all faulty and failed individuals, God will still receive glory when we are repentant sinners striving to bring about His will.

At other times we see people who unleash venom attacking one person after another. Whoever that venom is directed toward, harboring and releasing that hatred is not good for them or the people around them. Whether you agree with Lady Gaga or the Bible, it doesn't fit in either worldview as holy.

This post is written to distinguish that sort of rabid, venomous hatred from the hatred expressed by God that should also be expressed by His people.

When we feel that we have been wronged, we will find hatred creeping up. This is not the hatred we should nurture and foster. At times like those, we will find ourselves at a crossroads where we can choose whether to follow God, including his difficult teaching to love our enemies, and live in his grace toward others, even those we disagree with, or whether we will cling to our culture of divisiveness and lash back with personal attacks on the person who we feel has wronged us.

We each have many choices to make as we continue the process of being transformed from our fallen self into the person God has destined us to be. God has so much in store for each of us. The question is whether we will surrender ourselves to His will and pursue His kingdom, or whether we will pursue our own will and our own kingdom no matter how noble our personal will appears to be.

There is a hatred that is never holy. But then there is righteous hate. Let us strive to hate the things God hates and live the lives that God has planned for us to bring Him glory. Despite what Lady Gaga states, that is a hatred that is holy.

Bible Verses Expressing God's Hatred

For I hate divorce,” says the Lord, the God of Israel, “and him who covers his garment with wrong,” says the Lord of hosts. “So take heed to your spirit, that you do not deal treacherously.” Malachi 2:16 (NAS)

I hate, I despise your feasts, and I take no delight in your solemn assemblies.
Even though you offer me your burnt offerings and grain offerings, I will not accept them; and the peace offerings of your fattened animals, I will not look upon them.
Take away from me the noise of your songs; to the melody of your harps I will not listen.
But let justice roll down like waters, and righteousness like an ever-flowing stream.
Amos 5:21-24 (ESV)

You shall not plant any tree as an Asherah beside the altar of the Lord your God that you shall make. And you shall not set up a pillar, which the Lord your God hates.
Deut 16:21-22 (ESV)

These are the things that you shall do: Speak the truth to one another; render in your gates judgments that are true and make for peace; do not devise evil in your hearts against one another, and love no false oath, for all these things I hate, declares the Lord.”
Zech 8:16-17 (ESV)

Thus says the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel: You have seen all the disaster that I brought upon Jerusalem and upon all the cities of Judah. Behold, this day they are a desolation, and no one dwells in them, because of the evil that they committed, provoking me to anger, in that they went to make offerings and serve other gods that they knew not, neither they, nor you, nor your fathers. Yet I persistently sent to you all my servants the prophets, saying, ‘Oh, do not do this abomination that I hate!’
Jer 44:2-4 (ESV)

He [Jesus] looked around at them with anger, grieved at their hardness of heart. Mark 3:5 (ESV).

Be Hated For Doing Good

Beloved, I urge you as sojourners and exiles to abstain from the passions of the flesh, which wage war against your soul. Keep your conduct among the Gentiles honorable, so that when they speak against you as evildoers, they may see your good deeds and glorify God on the day of visitation.
(1 Peter 2:11-12)

For this is the will of God, that by doing good you should put to silence the ignorance of foolish people. Live as people who are free, not using your freedom as a cover-up for evil, but living as servants of God.
(1 Peter 2:15-16)

For it is better to suffer for doing good, if that should be God's will, than for doing evil. For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit,
(1 Peter 3:17-18)

The World Will Hate Christians

Do not be surprised, brothers, that the world hates you.
(1 John 3:13 ESV)

If the world hates you, know that it has hated me before it hated you. If you were of the world, the world would love you as its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you.
John 15:18-19 (ESV)

We Should Join In God's Hatred

The fear of the LORD is hatred of evil. Pride and arrogance and the way of evil and perverted speech I hate.
(Proverbs 8:13)

"I hate, I despise your feasts, and I take no delight in your solemn assemblies. Even though you offer me your burnt offerings and grain offerings, I will not accept them; and the peace offerings of your fattened animals, I will not look upon them. Take away from me the noise of your songs; to the melody of your harps I will not listen. But let justice roll down like waters, and righteousness like an ever-flowing stream.
(Amos 5:21-24)

Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world--the desires of the flesh and the desires of the eyes and pride of life--is not from the Father but is from the world. And the world is passing away along with its desires, but whoever does the will of God abides forever.
(1 John 2:15-17)

The Soterian Gospel, Scot McKnight, Ben Witherington, and God

The Soterian Gospel as Selfish by Scot McKnight from February 1, 2012

The point I want to make is that the soterian gospel is too often an individualistic, even at times incredibly selfish and self-serving, reshaping of the Story. The Story of the Bible is about God directing all of history toward Jesus as King and toward the arrival of the New Jerusalem where God will be all in all. We join in on that, but we are not the Center of the Story. The soterian gospel makes us too much the center of the Story.

Any gospel that is not God- and Jesus- and Spirit-centered is not the full gospel and is not driven by the right categories. Any gospel that is soterian shaped is, to one degree or another, shaped by the liberal impulse to make life about good ol’ me!

"For God so loved Himself?" Is God a Narcissist? by Ben Witherington from November 20, 2007

I suppose we should not be surprised that in a culture and age of narcissism, we would recreate God in our own self-centered image, but it is surprising when we find orthodox Christians, and even careful scholars doing this.

McKnight, at least in this article, misses that God loves humanity, Jesus served humanity, and we're called to do likewise.

If we are supposed to be the image of God, and God is all about Himself, then shouldn't we then be all about ourselves? But what if we are supposed to be the image of God, and that image is one of creativity, love, and service to others? (Phil 2:5-11)

 God's kingdom is upside down and it is through service one toward another that people are exalted. (Mark 10:43)

Jesus is our King. He should receive glory. And we should join with Him in His work of loving others. It is about others because we love God through loving them. (Matt 25:40, 1 John 4:20)

 Many go too far in making the gospel only about the individual, but to go and make the gospel only about God also goes too far. When we talk about the emphasis being God's glory, we cannot remove that from how God goes about getting that glory. He gets it by serving us. Lowly, created, sinful humans. What a great God! Worthy of glory!

Thoughts On God

Many people like firm policies and procedures. Many areas in life actually need them. This often translates into people imagining that God has firm policies and procedures, which leads to people developing destructive thoughts about God.

First, let’s get this out there. God’s goals never change. Who He is at the core of His being never changes. His attributes never change. But life here on earth is in a constant state of change, so the way He works and relates to us outside of Scripture is always in a state of flux. He does not operate with a policy and procedure manual; He operates through relationships with you, me, and everyone else in creation.

I have read stories of God healing an individual by having the sign of the cross done over them. Others have received healing through the laying on of hands. Still others just feel the presence of God during their quiet prayer time and receive healing. While others never receive the healing they greatly desire. God does not have a set procedure to receive His healing.

The same is true with knowing God. There is no set procedure. A devoted seeker of God will typically go to the Scriptures to learn about God, but God desires more than us just knowing about Him. He wants us to truly know Him. It’s the difference between me being able to tell you facts about Tim Tebow’s life. He was born in the Philippines to missionaries despite doctors recommending that he be aborted, was homeschooled, spent three summers as a missionary in the Philippines, was a high school standout in Florida, went on to become a college star with the Florida Gators, and now plays for the Denver Broncos. But that isn’t knowing Tim Tebow; that’s just me knowing facts about Tim Tebow. If I were able to tell you about that time that Tim and I tossed a football down on the beach while on vacation, went out to eat, and stayed up late talking about a variety of subjects, then that would be knowing Tim Tebow. (That’s just an illustration. I do not know Tim Tebow personally.) There is a difference between knowing about someone and really knowing them.

With all that said, I still don’t want to devalue knowing about God. The ideas that we know about God will influence how we pursue knowing God on a deeper level. If we think that God is uncaring because He let our loved one die, then that will influence how much we trust Him. If we think God is aloof and doesn’t really care about individual people, then that will influence how much we are willing to trust Him and do the bold and daring actions we are called to do. If we think that God isn’t gracious and merciful, that will influence the way we view our own sins and the sins of others.

The attributes that we believe God has or doesn’t have are integral to the way we actually live our lives.

I am heading to Liberia at the end of February to teach at a conference for church leaders and install safe water systems. In the process of writing these sessions, I am realizing how much I rely on knowing my audience when I prepare a message or a lesson. One of the lessons that I have been assigned to give is “Who is God?” In preparing that lesson, I am struck by the fact we must focus on who God is and His attributes. Deceptions are various and ever-changing, but the truth of God remains the same forever. We might learn a defense against the deceptions of today, but those defenses would be meaningless tomorrow when we are faced with new deceptions.

Jesus said to the Jews who had believed in him, “If you abide in my word, you are truly my disciples, and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free” (John 8:31-32 ESV).

The truth will set us free. Deceptions will do the opposite; they will enslave us.

There is an episode of Mythbusters where they tested a myth that filtering low end vodka through Brita filters would produce top-shelf vodka. They filtered and re-filtered the vodka six times through the Brita filters and took a sample from each filtration. With eight samples (the low end, the six filtrations, and the top-shelf), they then brought in their taste testers. Kari, Mythbusters’ female co-host, totally blew the taste test when she ranked the top-shelf as the second worst and the low-end as the third best. Finally, they got around to Anthony Dias Blue, a vodka expert and the executive director of the San Francisco World Spirits Competition. When he lined up the drinks, he had it completely figured out. He had the order completely right from the low-end being the worst, through all of the various stages of filtration, to the best one being the top-shelf vodka.

Don’t get me wrong. I’m not saying that drinking vodka will get you closer to God. Like the vodka expert was to vodka, we need to be with God. If we really know who God is, we will not be deceived by all of the deceptions Satan uses to get us off track. We need to know Him so well that we will not fall prey to all of the tricks that can cause us to lose focus on God and live a wasted life.

Our thoughts about God influence the way we live. Proper thoughts about God, if truly believed, lead to proper living. Through proper living, we can get to really know God rather than just know about Him. Let us not be people tossed by every cultural wave and steered off course by every societal wind. Let us live the life we were destined to live, anchored in the beauty and majesty of who God really is.

Love - What We Need to Change the World -- or at Least Our Neighbors

The reason most churches in America are struggling is not because the culture is hostile to the gospel but that we have yet to really live the gospel in their midst. We like to speak the gospel, but words are cheap. Most people reject intellectual propositions rather than Jesus Christ. We need to live the gospel, not just speak it.

The key to loving is that the change that Jesus brings has to have already happened in us. Love begins with us accepting Christ's love and reflecting it to others. We cannot love the unlovable unless our hearts are changed from a worldly, selfish state to a Christ-like, giving, sacrificial state.

When we see the hurt, the oppressed, the hopeless, are we hurt? Do we sympathize? Or do we echo the words of the Pharisee who prayed, "God, I thank you that I am not like other people" (Luke 18:11). Are we haughty in our position of wealth, education, or any other part of our life we hang our pride and success on? The tax collector prayed, "God, be merciful to me, a sinner!" (Luke 18:13). Jesus followed that up by saying, "I tell you, this man (the tax collector) went down to his home justified rather than the other; for all who exalt themselves will be humbled, but all who humble themselves will be exalted" (Luke 18:14).

A chart in the book UnChristian, which deals with what the younger generation thinks about the church and what the church has done to foster that thought, explains the call to a radical, sacrificial and loving life through the following verses.

Genesis 12:2-3—God wants the lives of his people to bless others.

Isaiah 58:10—God followers should spend themselves on behalf of the poor.

Micah 6:8—We should be known for living humbly and pursuing justice and offering mercy.

Matthew 5:44—Love people who seem to be ‘enemies’ and pray for them.

Matthew 25:35-40—Whatever people do for the ‘least of these’—forgotten and overlooked people in society—they do for Jesus.

Mark 9:35—The greatest role in life is to serve others.

Luke 4:18—Jesus’ ministry was first introduced as freeing captives, serving the oppressed, and healing the sick.

Luke 15:3-7—God pursues people like a shepherd would search for even one straying sheep.

Luke 15:11-32—God is described as a father who patiently waits for the return of his child.

John 3:17—Jesus came not to condemn the world but to save it.

John 15:13—You cannot love a person more than by giving your life up for him or her.

Galatians 5:13—Christians have freedom to love unconditionally as Christ loved people.

Philippians 2:17; 2 Timothy 4:6; 1 John 3:16-19—Our lives are to be ‘poured out’ and spent to serve God’s purposes.

Philippians 2:5-11; Colossians 1:21-22—Our attitude should be like that of Jesus, who loved and accepted humans even though they were ‘enemies’ of God. The he changed their status from enemies to friends, even sons and daughters of God, when they commit themselves to him.

1 Timothy 3:1-7—One of the qualifications of Christian leadership is to have ‘a good reputation with outsiders’ (v.7 NIV).

Titus 3:2—Christians should be peaceable and considerate, showing true humility toward everyone.

2 Peter 3:9—God wants everyone to repent and turn to him.

Would other people describe your life as a Christian in these terms? Do these principles guide your relationships with outsiders? Are you a Christ follower who seeks to live out this picture of Christianity as you interact with others?

Quote from unChristian: What a New Generation Really Thinks about Christianity... and Why It Matters
by David Kinnaman (213-314).

Love in the Face of Oppression - Quakers and Nazis

"You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous" (Matthew 5:43-45).

In testimony given before the House Military Affairs committee from July 10 to August 2, 1940, during the hearings on the Selective Training and Service Act, the Society of Friends gave their view on how they hoped the government would treat conscientious objectors. During the grilling from representatives who did not regard conscientious objectors highly, Paul French, the eventual head of the organization that represented the conscientious objectors with the government, was asked how Quakers were fairing under the Nazis. In reply, French shared the following testimony about a group of Quakers who were in an area conquered by the Germans:

"The Quaker units in Holland under German occupation and in Germany are still functioning. We just had a very interesting account last night from a member of the Service Committee of the Quaker unit functioning in Bordeaux when the Germany army came in. They had been feeding Spanish refugee children, and as soon as the German army of occupation landed, naturally, they were a bit concerned as to what was going to happen and they went to the commanding general and asked what their position was to be, and the two ranking officers of the German army told them that they had been fed by the Quaker relief organization 20 years ago, and to go ahead an operate as they had."

What a powerful testimony of the principle to love all people in all situations.

Confront Certain Sins? Never. - A Discussion on Gluttony in the Church

Aleks Tapinsch, who has his own website focused on his native country of Latvia, All about Latvia. If you wonder what is the news in Latvia or just wonder what Aleks is up to lately, check out his site.

Aleks had this to say in response to the discussion on what laws would be in a Christian nation.

"But what should be done with the sin of gluttony in the country of Christ? It seems Americans are suffering from it the most. And not only food, but also gluttony for stuff.

How can we talk about the sins of homosexuals when majority of our church members are obese and what's worse they don't even care? When was the last time you heard a sermon on gluttony?

Sloth should also be outlawed, shouldn't it? Anyone who does not work should not eat. We should scrap all those government programs providing financial help to the needy, the unemployed and the poor. They're just lazy, after all.

And what are we going to do about liars in Christian Exodus? Burn 'em."

My question would be, what should be done with these problems now in the church?

I believe we are to hold one another accountable on spiritual issues so that we can be where God wants us to be. As Ryan Dobson said in his interview with me, holding one another accountable is what we do if we actually love one another. Also, we are disciplined by God because of his love for us (Rev 3:19, Heb 12:7). We need to work on developing relationships with one another and being humble enough that proper Scriptural discipline can occur without conflict in our midst.

I have a tough time finding Scripture that condemns gluttony. There are 2 in the Old Testament (Deut 21:20, Prov 23:21) that would be adequate. But the principle of Christian Freedom is large enough and firm enough to stand on concerning gluttony (Gal 5). We are called to be free from anything that controls our lives besides Christ (Rom 6:5-23). Christ came to make his people a free people. If we are controlled by our flesh, then we are limited in how much we are controlled by Christ. If we truly love our brothers and sisters in Christ, we will try to help them overcome anything that controls them besides Christ. Unless, of course, we aren't focused on being the people God wants us to be and want to blindly adhere to our nation's religion of tolerance.

Now onto the "anyone who does not work should not eat" comment. It seems almost like Aleks was quoting Scripture. 2 Thessalonians 3:10-11 states: "For even when we were with you, we used to give you this order: if anyone will not work, neither let him eat.

For we hear that some among you are leading an undisciplined life, doing no work at all, but acting like busybodies." We are called to be loving and feed the hungry in other parts of Scripture (Isaiah 58:5-12, Matt 25:34-46, Rom 12:20). Romans even goes as far as saying we are to feed our enemies. Thessalonians offers a balance to those passages, a harsh balance that my body wants to say is unacceptable. However, it is when we submit to beliefs in Scripture that grate us the wrong way or stop doing something we love because Scripture condemns it that we know we are truly following Christ. For even the people that don't know God follow their hearts and do what they please. We are called to follow God's heart and do what he pleases even when it isn't or heart or our pleasing. So when we see a hungry person we should feed him. Then we should try to find him a job to feed himself. If he refuses to work, then we should refuse to feed. Harsh, Yes. Scriptural, Yes.

And liars. That one is the worst because it is so divisive and destructive to relationships. A glutton or slothful person only hurts himself. A liar destroys those around him. There is nothing that will be disciplined more harshly in my children than lying. Proverbs 19:22 says, "It is better to be a poor man than a liar."

Slothfulness, gluttony, and lying are things we should be dealing with now as a brothers and sisters in Christ. We don't have to wait until we have governmental authority behind us (and I would be scared if we did) to help those stuck in sin around us. Nor do we have to wait for governmental authority to crack down on us in order to overcome our sin. We are called to be like Christ.

Watch out of the potholes.

The Difference Between a Nation of Christians and a Christian Nation

Ben Brown gave a great reply. One that I mainly agree with. However, I still don't think I could convince somebody that Christian Exodus is not something God would call people to. I'll go through and reply to Ben's comments. It will be like I'm talking to him, but don't feel like you're invading our privacy by reading. This is the internet after all. And Ben, if you want to reply to my reply in your blog I'll put a link to that post in here.

"The difficulty(s), I think, would form along "denominational" lines. Christianity isn't necessarily suited to the democractic model. There are denominations that consider abortion ok, there are denominations that think women cutting their hair is sinful. If we tried to form a Christian nation it couldn't be 100% democratic. People would try to find biblical basis for their own view, but as most of us know people can find "justification" for just about anything if they know how to look."

Two issues here that I would like to talk about. First, I would agree that democracy probably isn't the government that would allow people to be led by God moreso than some other form of government. It does appear to be the form of government where people reap what they sow a lot quicker than they would in another form. If we are a stupid and shallow people, we will elect stupid and shallow leaders. If we are God-fearing people, then we would elect God-fearing leaders. So if a nation that is democratic is filled with genuine Christians, then the nation would be on the right track.

Now onto "denominational" lines. I do not know of a Christian whose life shows they are seeking God, who holds the Bible up at the foremost authority, and still thinks abortion is ok. There are disagreements when it comes to the life of the mother amongst Christians, but I do not think there is any disagreement otherwise. Christian Exodus would not attract those who believe that the American government has already made all of the right decisions anyway. And as for the more legalistic branches of Christianity, Christian Exodus has already stated what they believe. Either you believe these things and hop on or you don't believe them and stay where you are. Here is their statement of faith. I have a problem with one of them, but that is another topic for another day.

So far I am not convinced Christian Exodus is unbiblical or out of God's will. We'll continue on.

"Then the problem becomes dissatisfied people breaking off and forming their own groups. The precedent has already been set by breaking off into the larger group of Christians, what's to stop a smaller group from doing the same thing if they don't like the brand of Christianity that's currently predominant. It's a logistical nightmare. When the kingdom comes it's not going to be a democracy, why try to cram it into that hole now?"

This wasn't a problem during the time when America was colonized (or taken over depending on your perspective). There were many places for different groups to go and live together. I don't Christian Exodus is saying they are trying to bring the kingdom of God about through government. I think they are saying what I said in another post - being godly in government should not be something excluded from the being godly list. We accept that we are to be godly in our families, careers, and church life, but when it comes to government we shut the godly meter off. Saying they are trying to be the new Israel or the kingdom of God is a misrepresentation of their stance. They just want to live in a nation where they don't have to continually wash their hands of their nation's perpetual sins. A nation will sin. Just like it is for individuals, sins are much worse when they are conscious and continual. I feel guilt for our nation's sin of abortion every time I think about it because I am an American. I am partly responsible because we live in a democracy and I have a say in what happens.

"I don't disagree that God makes all things possible, but just because something is possible doesn't necessarily mean it's a good idea. We're call to be "in the world, but not of the world." By separating ourselves we're not really doing that. Also, how much less are we a witness to those around us, when we're not even around. You asked whether it would hurt our witness, and I am left wondering if our witness would still exist. Would we live, work, fellowship, wholly exist within this new nation? If so why leave? We'd send out missionaries to the outside world, but then how is that any different from what the church is doing now. A few doing the work that the many should be doing."

I could use the same arguments you used for subjects such as house church to home schooling to going away on retreats. Why take all of the good Christians out of the institutional church? How can you children be a witness to the world if they aren't in public school? How can you be an effective Christian if you are going into isolation for a period of time? Sometimes things have to happen that separate us from those around us, whether for a moment or a lifetime, that will enable the Gospel to grow. Our witness is not limited to our personal relationships. Although I believe in personal evangelism, I do believe many Christians have the tendency to use our relationships as manipulative tools rather than for authentic friendship.

An example of effective evangelism is found in the book Celtic Way of Evangelism. It talks about how Ireland and Northern Europe was won to the Lord.



The general concept in their evangelism was the monastery. Don't think of what the monastery has become, but realize what its original intention was. I think this illustration parallels the goal of Christian Exodus. Technology has made people in a state like South Carolina just as close to the rest of the world due to all of the improvements in communication and transportation just as people who once lived in Europe outside of a community were close to the community they wanted to minister to. In a weird and maybe unhealthy way, I am closer to people who live around our nation than I am to people who live 100 yards from me. In Celtic Way of Evangelism, George Hunter describes how the Christians would move to a location outside of a community, establish a monastery, and start living out the Christian life together. It wasn't about evangelism; it was about being real Christians living together. As a result of this, the communities they were living outside of saw God's love and were eventually included into their communities. Before long, the people in the other community were living out the Christian life, realized this, and decided they were Christians. The book focuses on the difference between Christianity being a lifestyle to be lived compared to a set of belief statements to be acknowledged.

I strongly believe that the greatest evangelistic tool Christians have is just being authentic Christians living together. That was the drive that encouraged me to start the church in Lansing. That is the drive that penetrates my ministries now. There is no apologetic trick or evangelistic method that will create real Christians besides us being real Christians.

A person's witness is not limited to their personal relationships. As a matter of fact, William Bradford, who lived in the 1620s, just witnessed to me today. I wanted to read the Mayflower Compact to see whether it was overtly Christian or not. It was. The whole purpose of starting the colony appears to be to bring glory to God. This is where I have a problem saying Christian Exodus is wrong. Although, I agree partly with everything you wrote. I understand the fear of separating the people of Christ from the world. I don't think democracy is the form of government God intended for the world. I fear the continual fragmentation of Christianity. However, I still can't say Christian Exodus is out of God's will. It appears to be a continuation of His will. He has sent people to start nations in the past, from Abraham to John Calvin to American colonists, and will probably continue to do similar things in the future. But I get the feeling that everyone around me is saying this is not something God would do. How can it not be something God would do if it is something God has done? Please let me know why and where my logic is faulty. I want to know the right answer.

Christian Exodus might not, in God's mind, be a witness for today. It might be for tomorrow. God is at work for the redemption of the world. And if Christian Exodus can somehow bring about that, He is all for it. I still don't see where it exacerbates problems that are already occurring. It seems like it would fix some while being a light for the world of how people who claim to follow God should live together.

Also, some non-Christians will still live in South Carolina, so it isn't like they will be living in a Christian bubble.

"I'm at work, so I need to go, but I think it's a pipe dream to think that a christian nation could even exist. And a bad idea if it ever came to fruition."

I think I would agree again. But I do think there is a difference between a Christian nation and a group of people who are Christians that comprise a nation. A Christian nation would be arrogant and proud. As a matter of fact, I think America makes this claim. A nation of Christians would be humble and serving. Quick to help the rest of the world in an instant. Loving in every way possible. It wouldn't accept sin while at the same time trying to reform the sinner. It would be everything a good church should be because it would just another ministry of the church (God's people). The kingdom is God's. We are just caretakers for a temporal time.

Watch out for the potholes.

A Court Win for God Under Technicality - Trying to be a Christian Nation

Today's headline at Yahoo read, "Court Allows 'Under God' on Technicality" This is just an example of yesterday's point that we are not even close to being a Christian nation. Some of you might be saying, "That's right, and we aren't supposed to be one." I would agree.

But what happens when the majority of a nation is actually Christian, not just in survey polls only? Let's revisit Christian Exodus. If Christians move to an area and become a very large majority, should they let the non-believers decide whether we should abort babies, feed the hungry, help prisoners better themselves, and stand up for world peace? Or should Christians stand up and not allow in utero babies to be aborted, feed the hungry out of our excess or even sacrifice our just enough, re-educate prisoners, and try to bring about world peace? I'm sure there are many other things that Christians should not allow to be on their hands if they are the majority in the society.

I'm not talking about militaristic taking over of a country, but what a democratic country should look like if Christians are in the majority. Christians should always be concerned first and foremost about the kingdom of God. But does that exclude us from being concerned about our family, our work, or even our government. Why do we exclude government from the whole subject? The Bible doesn't tell us much on how to raise a godly family, yet we still believe that is something God wants us to do. The Bible doesn't tell us much on how to be godly in the workplace, yet we still believe that is something God wants us to do. Why do we say, "The Bible doesn't tell us how to be godly citizens in a democracy (something they didn't even have when the Bible was written), so we need not worry anything about it?"

I am not just asking these questions Socratically. I really am struggling with the issue. In college, discussion was the way we would arrive at the truth. (Thanks, Shannon Caroland.) We would discuss, discuss, discuss, until we, usually, came to agreement. It was very rare where when we didn't come to a concensus and decided to agree to disagree. Now that I'm in the real world nobody seems to care about one another and their thoughts. People's thoughts are up to the individual and nobody else should have a right to influence them unless they are a paid minister or psychiatrist. From them it is expected but easily disregarded because it is their job. So we always keep ourselves isolated on the throne of a kingdom of one. I would much rather be a citizen in a community of 1000s than the king of one.

Watch out for the potholes.

Creating a Jesus State - On Christian Exodus

I've been trying to avoid being contentious, but I can't.

The other day when I brought up Christian Exodus, Crystal replied in a follow-up post saying, “Now concerning a Christian Nation, the logistics will shoot that idea down quicker than anything else. Land, roads, taxation, etc etc.” Although she went further, she wasn’t alone in this reply. I also talked to Josh Kissling and he brought up the same thing in my store.

What should be our proper response has been plaguing my heart ever since. I didn’t want to bring my conclusion up because I don’t want to cause strife and I like both Crystal and Josh, but I have to get it off my chest or I will go crazy.

When the topic of Christian Exodus comes up, the thought that it isn’t possible should be the least of our concerns. If God is calling people to it, then whether it is possible doesn’t really matter. Should we be the type of Christians that worry about whether that which God has called us to is possible? Or are we to be the type of Christians that follow God’s calling no matter how irrational or illogical it may seem? I think it was very irrational for Jesus to die on a cross to save the world. Hosea could have been saying, “Lord, it is not logical for me to marry a prostitute.” Abraham could have told God, “This is where my family is and where I am supposed to be. That is completely irrational that you would want me to leave this land I was born in and go to this so-called ‘Promised Land’.” But it is in the things that are irrational or illogical that God turns the ways of the world upside down.

The first and most important thing is whether Christian Exodus contradicts Scripture. That one I am not sure on. If it contradicts Scripture, I would love to see verses. But we cannot say that just because the Bible doesn't give directions on how to do government means that God doesn't have a plan for it. We are given the Spirit to help us work through things the Bible doesn't directly address.

The second thing we can look at is church history. The modern church seems to be oblivious to the past. But in order to understand if this is something God calls Christians to, we can look at the past. Because if he called people to it once, then it is something he can call people to again. Was John Calvin called of God when he tried to create a theocracy in Geneva? Do we think God called the Mayflower over here to start a Christian colony? Many of the American colonies were started due to people being “called” by God to sail across the ocean and start governments that would be focused upon doing the will of God. They had to leave behind their present environments where they could’ve been more effective personal witnesses of Christ, but, apparently, they were called onto a different path because God had bigger plans in the works than just the one or two individuals they would win to the Lord through personal relationships. God is always trying to redeem the whole world. He always is looking at the big picture which we sometimes have trouble seeing.

Now this leads to the heart of the matter of Christian Exodus. I believe God is in the process of not only redeeming individuals but of also redeeming societies, which would include governments. The question that is important, and that we should tackle, is whether God would call anyone to leave their environment, go to another place, and change a corrupted government into a government that is focused - although they will fail - on following God. They key thing is that they would be striving to be what God wants them to be.

The American government is not Christian. It might have resemblances of Christianity, but it is failing on many levels. It is not striving to be what God wants it to be, and I do think a government can try to be what God wants it to be. However, I do not know what the proper response of this is. I am not a total supporter of the Christian Exodus, but I am not a naysayer yet. I actually haven’t heard a solid reason to be a naysayer. The most convincing argument is being a witness to those around you, but history has shown God's call away from that in the past. All of the people against Christian Exodus act like it is obvious to be against it and don’t explain why it is obvious. I am having trouble understanding how it is obvious when I look at this in the context of history. God wants to redeem the whole world. Would Christian Exodus somehow prevent God from waking people up or might it be the alarm clock the world has been waiting for?

Maybe I'm wrong. Please let me know where I am, so that we all can grow.

And watch out for the potholes.