I figured I would try my best to answer the concerns that were brought up by Mr. Anonymous in his response to my previous post. The blockquote function hasn't been working properly in Blogger for a while now, so I apologize for the bad formatting that might make it difficult to read. I'll use stars instead.
***
Mr. Anonymous wrote (if you are a Mrs. I apologize for calling you Mr.):
In your last response you said something that I fully agreed with....."baptism that is associated with an appeal to God for a good conscience is the one that saves....it is the heart and not the action that saves us through the resurrection of Jesus."
That is exactly what I Peter 3:21 is saying....baptism is not to cleanse physically (which would have been the perception of the Jews of that day) but is the answer of good conscience toward God because we have obeyed His word and we know He is going to do exactly what He said He would....
* Wash away our sins, Acts 22:16, Acts 2:38
* "Clothe" us in Christ, Galations 3:27-29
* Save us, I Peter 3:21
***
Is baptism necessary for us to have an "appeal to God for a good concsience?" Peter was clear that it is that appeal and not the water of baptism that saves us.
***
Mr. Anonymous wrote:
None of this should, however, diminish the role of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit has worked all through time and serves various functions throughout the Bible and throughout Christian lives. The problem I had with the original post, was your pulling a few scripture instances of the Holy Spirit being manifested that were not necessarily put into context of the entire story of the early church in Acts.
***
I didn't just a pull a "few scriptures" out in my first post. I went through Acts and wrote about every passage where I could see an action linked with the arrival of the Holy Spirit. If it talked about the Holy Spirit coming at baptism, I included it. Whatever the case, I included it. If you feel that I missed a specific verse in the book of Acts concerning the arrival of the Holy Spirit, then please let me know what verse I missed. I would love to include it.
Acts does show us that the Holy Spirit came at baptism, at the laying on of hands, at hearing, and at other various times. The Holy Spirit, which is the seal of our salvation, wasn't given solely at water baptism; He came at various times and seemed to be somewhat unpredictable.
I didn't go through Acts and show the various ways that the people were empowered by the Holy Spirit in the early church. That would also be an interesting study, but that wasn't my focus. I wanted to see what events prompted the arrival of the Holy Spirit. Baptism wasn't the only action that brought this arrival on.
***
Mr. Anonymous wrote:
Acts tells of a total upheaval of culture and religion. These people were ucustomed to sacrifices, a temple priesthood, laws of cleanliness and uncleanliness, a contempt for Gentiles, PLUS no New Testament to show them God's plan through His Word. The apostles and others spreading the gospel had a monumental task and needed solid credibility to convince the world that this was for real. The use of tongues, healings, prophesies, and other powerful functions of the Holy Spirit were absolutely necessary for early Church survival. Laying on hands (before or after baptism) to show forth the manifestation of the Holy Spirit would have been a powerful sign of salvation or worthiness to be saved (especially as far as the Gentiles were concerned). Just because this does not occur now (I have never heard of any group truly having the Holy Spirit fall upon them like this) this does not make the Holy Spirit of any less importance. In fact, I would say that we need Him now more than ever.
God has given us His Word in which the Spirit works to convict hearts and lead us to the knowledge of His grace and forgiveness. This is not "compartmentalizing" the Holy Spirit; if anything, we are uplifting the fact that the Holy Spirit is such a powerful presence in the Word and in our lives and is a precious gift promised to us as part of our Salvation along with forgiveness of sins that occur at baptism (Acts 2:38). Peter went on in Acts 2:39 to say that this was a promise to future generations...He knew that the apostles (who without doubt had an extra measure of the Holy Spirit)would not be around forever, but this message would.
***
I don't know how you can say the apostles had an extra measure of the Holy Spirit without doubt. Where does Scripture say that?
And if you're saying that the Holy Spirit only works in us today through the Scriptures, then you are "compartmenalizing" the Spirit. If you're not, then we are mostly in agreement. You seemed to not be clear on exactly how you feel the Spirit works today.
In our post-modern culture, I would say that we are in the same situation that the early church was in. We have a "monumaental task and need solid credibility to convince the world that this is for real." (I took liberty to make the phrase present tense.) Like Troy's reply to your response in the comments to my last post, I see no evidence in Scripture for the cessation of the actions of the Spirit through church history and into modern times. We need validation to our message because the phrase "the Bible says so" has no meaning to people outside of the faith.
***
Mr. Anonymous wrote:
I was concerned about a couple of the statements that you made, as well. First, "We do not have salvation unless we have the Holy Spirit" and then later "When our heart surrenders to God, that is when we are saved." Well, which one is it? How can a heart fully surrender to God unless it has been obedient to His Will? How does a person know they have received the Holy Spirit? Is it a feeling, a light, a jolt? I believe that is why God gave us His plan, because by putting EVERYTHING together (none more essential than the other) belief, repentance, baptism, faithfulness....all working so perfectly to save us from our sins and giving us the absolute knowledge (not some ambiguous feeling) that we have been obedient to the whole Word and truly do have the gift of the Holy Spirit.
***
I'm sorry that I wasn't as clear as I should've been. I believe we receive the Holy Spirit when our hearts surrender to God. So I am saying both - "We do not have salvation unless we have the Holy Spirit" and "When our heart surrenders to God, that is when we are saved." I do not see those two statement at odds with one another.
Why would someone be obedient to God unless he has surrendered his heart over?
Sadly, reception of the Holy Spirit isn't something concrete. I think Acts shows that. It can come at various times through various means. I believe we came up with the "plan" (belief, repentance, baptism, faitfulness) because we like systems and formulas. We like to say the four spiritual laws (a different formula than the one you lay out) or the plan. The plan is Scriptural, but I don't believe salvation through Christ is confined to a formula. It isn't scientific, it's relational.
Do you know people that believe they have been saved without baptism that have an ambigous feeling about their salvation? I would argue that the only ambiguous feelings about their salvation comes from those who proclaim that baptism is essential. I'm pretty sure they feel secure in their salvation; just as secure as those who have been baptized. I hope you don't depend on your baptism to give you salvation. As was also discussed in the comments to my last post, salvation is not something that is completed at the some point in our life. It is a process that we must continue to struggle, with the help of the Spirit, through. Baptism is scriptural and extremely beneficial, but I do not believe it can be of any more assurance of our salvation than any other action. Our heart, which is not measurable by other humans, is the only measure for salvation. We can be assured of our salvation, but just because my wife, children (which they haven't), or friends have been baptized does not does not assure me of their salvation. I cannot see into their heart. I can see glimpses of their heart through their actions, but the true state of their heart is hidden to me.
***
Mr Anonymous wrote:
Acts 5:30-32 states, "The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree. Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be Prince and a Savior, for to give repentance to Isreal, and forgiveness of sins. And we are His witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to them that obey Him."
I will be praying for you and I hope you are looking for the truth, as well as I am. I understand that what I have written probably will not change your views, but I felt truly compelled to share with you what I feel you already know. Please put everything....do not seek out a few scriptures that (on the surface, anyways) seem to refute....us the entire Word of God to show the true harmony and purity of God's perfect plan.
This will be my last post in this matter, because I do not want to seem argumentative in any way. I truly hope that I will see in Heaven one day.
***
I appreciate the reply. I just don't see things the same way. As long as you reply in a spirit of love, I don't mind if you continue to reply. For if you are speaking the truth, it does need to get out there despite my thoughts.
I don't believe that I have taken out a "few scriptures" to prove my point. I went into the book of Acts to see every instance of the arrival of the Spirit. I didn't ignore any because it didn't line up with what I believed. I tried to come to what I believe as a result of looking at the whole of the book of Acts. Maybe that was too narrow, but I think what I understood through the teaching of Acts can't be swayed by verses in other places. It seemed pretty clear that the Holy Spirit came at various times through various actions. I feel that those who believe baptism is the point of the arrival of the Holy Spirit have to ignore verses to prove their point. It seems that I was doing the exact opposite. I'm not going to ignore any verse. I showed that the arrival of the Holy Spirit happened through all different circumstances. It couldn't be narrowed to just baptism if I was dealing with the Scriptures in a way that I felt was honest.
I believe we will see one another in heaven some day if we are both surrenedered to God and living for him. Just because we have been baptized doesn't mean that we are surrendered.
Watch out for the potholes.
