Anyway, a man named Alan posted some comments (http://regansravings.blogspot.com/2006/01/church-hunt-struggles-with-essential.html#comments) on the blog yesterday. They were well thought out comments that are worthy of being read. I'm going to address one thing that he brought up, but there is much more to chew on than just what I address here. Thanks for the well thought out comment, even if they disagree, and the fact that you put your name to them. That is appreciated.
"1 Cor 13:8-9 (WEB) says:
Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will be done away with. Where there are various languages, they will cease. Where there is knowledge, it will be done away with. For we know in part, and we prophesy in part; but when that which is complete has come, then that which is partial will be done away with.
Miraculous knowledge (revelation) and prophecy came in bits and pieces. The prophet didn't receive the entire Word of God each time. It was partial. When the complete revelation has come (the Bible), the partial would pass away.
The KJV translated "perfect" in verse 10 rather than "complete". Most English translations follow that tradition. In KJ English that is a correct translation. But the context indicates that "complete" is the better translation, since the contrast is between that which is partial and that which is not partial. That is how the World English Bible has translated the verse. I haven't heard of any Greek scholars suggesting that this choice was improper.
Historically that seems to be what happened. By the middle of the 2nd century (a generation or so after the last apostle), church writings indicate that there were no legitimate miraculous gifts remaining in the church."
The question is whether we view the perfect as the Bible of as Jesus' physical return. I believe the latter for the following reasons. I have seen miraculous spiritual gifts, but my personal experience can be tainted. So I'll try to look at the Scripture in question as best as I can.
1 Corinthians 13:8-13 (NAS) 8 Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part; 10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away. 11 When I was a child, I used to speak like a child, think like a child, reason like a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things. 12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known. 13 But now faith, hope, love, abide these three; but the greatest of these is love.
v.12 - Paul talks about how he will know fully in the days when the perfect comes. I do not think that we know fully even with Scripture. This very discussion is evidence against that. Brothers and sisters in Christ disagree when reading the Scriptures. None of us fully know all things, but when Jesus returns we will all have the complete and perfect knowledge of all things. Our mirror is still dim. Our spiritual eyes are not what they should be. We struggle, contemplate, and pray over Scripture, and yet there is none of us that probably believe exactly the same things we believed 10-20 years before. We grow. We see more clearly every day.
"13 And now faith, hope, and love abide, these three; and the greatest of these is love."
But even if their was an age of the miraclous time of the Spirit that might've ended, the most important things then were faith, hope, and love. Abide carries with it an eternal significance. These things will not be done away with; they should last now and forevermore. They are what is important. The "perfect" will bring about perfect faith, hope, and love. So when we are surrounded by perfect faith, hope, and love that has been brought about by the arrival of the "perfect" then we will know that the "perfect" has truly come.
I do think it is important to hold onto these things no matter where we find ourselves in this discussion. Whether we believe baptism is the only point of salvation or not - whether we believe the miraculous gifts of the Spirit are gone or not - in the end those intellectual concepts seem to not really matter. What matters is faith, hope, and love. Let us always exhibit those three as we live in the grace of Christ with unity toward one another.
Now faith, hope, and love abide, these three; and the greatest of these is love.
Watch out for the Potholes.
A Response on Baptism and the Spirit
I figured I would try my best to answer the concerns that were brought up by Mr. Anonymous in his response to my previous post. The blockquote function hasn't been working properly in Blogger for a while now, so I apologize for the bad formatting that might make it difficult to read. I'll use stars instead.
***
Mr. Anonymous wrote (if you are a Mrs. I apologize for calling you Mr.):
In your last response you said something that I fully agreed with....."baptism that is associated with an appeal to God for a good conscience is the one that saves....it is the heart and not the action that saves us through the resurrection of Jesus."
That is exactly what I Peter 3:21 is saying....baptism is not to cleanse physically (which would have been the perception of the Jews of that day) but is the answer of good conscience toward God because we have obeyed His word and we know He is going to do exactly what He said He would....
* Wash away our sins, Acts 22:16, Acts 2:38
* "Clothe" us in Christ, Galations 3:27-29
* Save us, I Peter 3:21
***
Is baptism necessary for us to have an "appeal to God for a good concsience?" Peter was clear that it is that appeal and not the water of baptism that saves us.
***
Mr. Anonymous wrote:
None of this should, however, diminish the role of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit has worked all through time and serves various functions throughout the Bible and throughout Christian lives. The problem I had with the original post, was your pulling a few scripture instances of the Holy Spirit being manifested that were not necessarily put into context of the entire story of the early church in Acts.
***
I didn't just a pull a "few scriptures" out in my first post. I went through Acts and wrote about every passage where I could see an action linked with the arrival of the Holy Spirit. If it talked about the Holy Spirit coming at baptism, I included it. Whatever the case, I included it. If you feel that I missed a specific verse in the book of Acts concerning the arrival of the Holy Spirit, then please let me know what verse I missed. I would love to include it.
Acts does show us that the Holy Spirit came at baptism, at the laying on of hands, at hearing, and at other various times. The Holy Spirit, which is the seal of our salvation, wasn't given solely at water baptism; He came at various times and seemed to be somewhat unpredictable.
I didn't go through Acts and show the various ways that the people were empowered by the Holy Spirit in the early church. That would also be an interesting study, but that wasn't my focus. I wanted to see what events prompted the arrival of the Holy Spirit. Baptism wasn't the only action that brought this arrival on.
***
Mr. Anonymous wrote:
Acts tells of a total upheaval of culture and religion. These people were ucustomed to sacrifices, a temple priesthood, laws of cleanliness and uncleanliness, a contempt for Gentiles, PLUS no New Testament to show them God's plan through His Word. The apostles and others spreading the gospel had a monumental task and needed solid credibility to convince the world that this was for real. The use of tongues, healings, prophesies, and other powerful functions of the Holy Spirit were absolutely necessary for early Church survival. Laying on hands (before or after baptism) to show forth the manifestation of the Holy Spirit would have been a powerful sign of salvation or worthiness to be saved (especially as far as the Gentiles were concerned). Just because this does not occur now (I have never heard of any group truly having the Holy Spirit fall upon them like this) this does not make the Holy Spirit of any less importance. In fact, I would say that we need Him now more than ever.
God has given us His Word in which the Spirit works to convict hearts and lead us to the knowledge of His grace and forgiveness. This is not "compartmentalizing" the Holy Spirit; if anything, we are uplifting the fact that the Holy Spirit is such a powerful presence in the Word and in our lives and is a precious gift promised to us as part of our Salvation along with forgiveness of sins that occur at baptism (Acts 2:38). Peter went on in Acts 2:39 to say that this was a promise to future generations...He knew that the apostles (who without doubt had an extra measure of the Holy Spirit)would not be around forever, but this message would.
***
I don't know how you can say the apostles had an extra measure of the Holy Spirit without doubt. Where does Scripture say that?
And if you're saying that the Holy Spirit only works in us today through the Scriptures, then you are "compartmenalizing" the Spirit. If you're not, then we are mostly in agreement. You seemed to not be clear on exactly how you feel the Spirit works today.
In our post-modern culture, I would say that we are in the same situation that the early church was in. We have a "monumaental task and need solid credibility to convince the world that this is for real." (I took liberty to make the phrase present tense.) Like Troy's reply to your response in the comments to my last post, I see no evidence in Scripture for the cessation of the actions of the Spirit through church history and into modern times. We need validation to our message because the phrase "the Bible says so" has no meaning to people outside of the faith.
***
Mr. Anonymous wrote:
I was concerned about a couple of the statements that you made, as well. First, "We do not have salvation unless we have the Holy Spirit" and then later "When our heart surrenders to God, that is when we are saved." Well, which one is it? How can a heart fully surrender to God unless it has been obedient to His Will? How does a person know they have received the Holy Spirit? Is it a feeling, a light, a jolt? I believe that is why God gave us His plan, because by putting EVERYTHING together (none more essential than the other) belief, repentance, baptism, faithfulness....all working so perfectly to save us from our sins and giving us the absolute knowledge (not some ambiguous feeling) that we have been obedient to the whole Word and truly do have the gift of the Holy Spirit.
***
I'm sorry that I wasn't as clear as I should've been. I believe we receive the Holy Spirit when our hearts surrender to God. So I am saying both - "We do not have salvation unless we have the Holy Spirit" and "When our heart surrenders to God, that is when we are saved." I do not see those two statement at odds with one another.
Why would someone be obedient to God unless he has surrendered his heart over?
Sadly, reception of the Holy Spirit isn't something concrete. I think Acts shows that. It can come at various times through various means. I believe we came up with the "plan" (belief, repentance, baptism, faitfulness) because we like systems and formulas. We like to say the four spiritual laws (a different formula than the one you lay out) or the plan. The plan is Scriptural, but I don't believe salvation through Christ is confined to a formula. It isn't scientific, it's relational.
Do you know people that believe they have been saved without baptism that have an ambigous feeling about their salvation? I would argue that the only ambiguous feelings about their salvation comes from those who proclaim that baptism is essential. I'm pretty sure they feel secure in their salvation; just as secure as those who have been baptized. I hope you don't depend on your baptism to give you salvation. As was also discussed in the comments to my last post, salvation is not something that is completed at the some point in our life. It is a process that we must continue to struggle, with the help of the Spirit, through. Baptism is scriptural and extremely beneficial, but I do not believe it can be of any more assurance of our salvation than any other action. Our heart, which is not measurable by other humans, is the only measure for salvation. We can be assured of our salvation, but just because my wife, children (which they haven't), or friends have been baptized does not does not assure me of their salvation. I cannot see into their heart. I can see glimpses of their heart through their actions, but the true state of their heart is hidden to me.
***
Mr Anonymous wrote:
Acts 5:30-32 states, "The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree. Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be Prince and a Savior, for to give repentance to Isreal, and forgiveness of sins. And we are His witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to them that obey Him."
I will be praying for you and I hope you are looking for the truth, as well as I am. I understand that what I have written probably will not change your views, but I felt truly compelled to share with you what I feel you already know. Please put everything....do not seek out a few scriptures that (on the surface, anyways) seem to refute....us the entire Word of God to show the true harmony and purity of God's perfect plan.
This will be my last post in this matter, because I do not want to seem argumentative in any way. I truly hope that I will see in Heaven one day.
***
I appreciate the reply. I just don't see things the same way. As long as you reply in a spirit of love, I don't mind if you continue to reply. For if you are speaking the truth, it does need to get out there despite my thoughts.
I don't believe that I have taken out a "few scriptures" to prove my point. I went into the book of Acts to see every instance of the arrival of the Spirit. I didn't ignore any because it didn't line up with what I believed. I tried to come to what I believe as a result of looking at the whole of the book of Acts. Maybe that was too narrow, but I think what I understood through the teaching of Acts can't be swayed by verses in other places. It seemed pretty clear that the Holy Spirit came at various times through various actions. I feel that those who believe baptism is the point of the arrival of the Holy Spirit have to ignore verses to prove their point. It seems that I was doing the exact opposite. I'm not going to ignore any verse. I showed that the arrival of the Holy Spirit happened through all different circumstances. It couldn't be narrowed to just baptism if I was dealing with the Scriptures in a way that I felt was honest.
I believe we will see one another in heaven some day if we are both surrenedered to God and living for him. Just because we have been baptized doesn't mean that we are surrendered.
Watch out for the potholes.
***
Mr. Anonymous wrote (if you are a Mrs. I apologize for calling you Mr.):
In your last response you said something that I fully agreed with....."baptism that is associated with an appeal to God for a good conscience is the one that saves....it is the heart and not the action that saves us through the resurrection of Jesus."
That is exactly what I Peter 3:21 is saying....baptism is not to cleanse physically (which would have been the perception of the Jews of that day) but is the answer of good conscience toward God because we have obeyed His word and we know He is going to do exactly what He said He would....
* Wash away our sins, Acts 22:16, Acts 2:38
* "Clothe" us in Christ, Galations 3:27-29
* Save us, I Peter 3:21
***
Is baptism necessary for us to have an "appeal to God for a good concsience?" Peter was clear that it is that appeal and not the water of baptism that saves us.
***
Mr. Anonymous wrote:
None of this should, however, diminish the role of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit has worked all through time and serves various functions throughout the Bible and throughout Christian lives. The problem I had with the original post, was your pulling a few scripture instances of the Holy Spirit being manifested that were not necessarily put into context of the entire story of the early church in Acts.
***
I didn't just a pull a "few scriptures" out in my first post. I went through Acts and wrote about every passage where I could see an action linked with the arrival of the Holy Spirit. If it talked about the Holy Spirit coming at baptism, I included it. Whatever the case, I included it. If you feel that I missed a specific verse in the book of Acts concerning the arrival of the Holy Spirit, then please let me know what verse I missed. I would love to include it.
Acts does show us that the Holy Spirit came at baptism, at the laying on of hands, at hearing, and at other various times. The Holy Spirit, which is the seal of our salvation, wasn't given solely at water baptism; He came at various times and seemed to be somewhat unpredictable.
I didn't go through Acts and show the various ways that the people were empowered by the Holy Spirit in the early church. That would also be an interesting study, but that wasn't my focus. I wanted to see what events prompted the arrival of the Holy Spirit. Baptism wasn't the only action that brought this arrival on.
***
Mr. Anonymous wrote:
Acts tells of a total upheaval of culture and religion. These people were ucustomed to sacrifices, a temple priesthood, laws of cleanliness and uncleanliness, a contempt for Gentiles, PLUS no New Testament to show them God's plan through His Word. The apostles and others spreading the gospel had a monumental task and needed solid credibility to convince the world that this was for real. The use of tongues, healings, prophesies, and other powerful functions of the Holy Spirit were absolutely necessary for early Church survival. Laying on hands (before or after baptism) to show forth the manifestation of the Holy Spirit would have been a powerful sign of salvation or worthiness to be saved (especially as far as the Gentiles were concerned). Just because this does not occur now (I have never heard of any group truly having the Holy Spirit fall upon them like this) this does not make the Holy Spirit of any less importance. In fact, I would say that we need Him now more than ever.
God has given us His Word in which the Spirit works to convict hearts and lead us to the knowledge of His grace and forgiveness. This is not "compartmentalizing" the Holy Spirit; if anything, we are uplifting the fact that the Holy Spirit is such a powerful presence in the Word and in our lives and is a precious gift promised to us as part of our Salvation along with forgiveness of sins that occur at baptism (Acts 2:38). Peter went on in Acts 2:39 to say that this was a promise to future generations...He knew that the apostles (who without doubt had an extra measure of the Holy Spirit)would not be around forever, but this message would.
***
I don't know how you can say the apostles had an extra measure of the Holy Spirit without doubt. Where does Scripture say that?
And if you're saying that the Holy Spirit only works in us today through the Scriptures, then you are "compartmenalizing" the Spirit. If you're not, then we are mostly in agreement. You seemed to not be clear on exactly how you feel the Spirit works today.
In our post-modern culture, I would say that we are in the same situation that the early church was in. We have a "monumaental task and need solid credibility to convince the world that this is for real." (I took liberty to make the phrase present tense.) Like Troy's reply to your response in the comments to my last post, I see no evidence in Scripture for the cessation of the actions of the Spirit through church history and into modern times. We need validation to our message because the phrase "the Bible says so" has no meaning to people outside of the faith.
***
Mr. Anonymous wrote:
I was concerned about a couple of the statements that you made, as well. First, "We do not have salvation unless we have the Holy Spirit" and then later "When our heart surrenders to God, that is when we are saved." Well, which one is it? How can a heart fully surrender to God unless it has been obedient to His Will? How does a person know they have received the Holy Spirit? Is it a feeling, a light, a jolt? I believe that is why God gave us His plan, because by putting EVERYTHING together (none more essential than the other) belief, repentance, baptism, faithfulness....all working so perfectly to save us from our sins and giving us the absolute knowledge (not some ambiguous feeling) that we have been obedient to the whole Word and truly do have the gift of the Holy Spirit.
***
I'm sorry that I wasn't as clear as I should've been. I believe we receive the Holy Spirit when our hearts surrender to God. So I am saying both - "We do not have salvation unless we have the Holy Spirit" and "When our heart surrenders to God, that is when we are saved." I do not see those two statement at odds with one another.
Why would someone be obedient to God unless he has surrendered his heart over?
Sadly, reception of the Holy Spirit isn't something concrete. I think Acts shows that. It can come at various times through various means. I believe we came up with the "plan" (belief, repentance, baptism, faitfulness) because we like systems and formulas. We like to say the four spiritual laws (a different formula than the one you lay out) or the plan. The plan is Scriptural, but I don't believe salvation through Christ is confined to a formula. It isn't scientific, it's relational.
Do you know people that believe they have been saved without baptism that have an ambigous feeling about their salvation? I would argue that the only ambiguous feelings about their salvation comes from those who proclaim that baptism is essential. I'm pretty sure they feel secure in their salvation; just as secure as those who have been baptized. I hope you don't depend on your baptism to give you salvation. As was also discussed in the comments to my last post, salvation is not something that is completed at the some point in our life. It is a process that we must continue to struggle, with the help of the Spirit, through. Baptism is scriptural and extremely beneficial, but I do not believe it can be of any more assurance of our salvation than any other action. Our heart, which is not measurable by other humans, is the only measure for salvation. We can be assured of our salvation, but just because my wife, children (which they haven't), or friends have been baptized does not does not assure me of their salvation. I cannot see into their heart. I can see glimpses of their heart through their actions, but the true state of their heart is hidden to me.
***
Mr Anonymous wrote:
Acts 5:30-32 states, "The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree. Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be Prince and a Savior, for to give repentance to Isreal, and forgiveness of sins. And we are His witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to them that obey Him."
I will be praying for you and I hope you are looking for the truth, as well as I am. I understand that what I have written probably will not change your views, but I felt truly compelled to share with you what I feel you already know. Please put everything....do not seek out a few scriptures that (on the surface, anyways) seem to refute....us the entire Word of God to show the true harmony and purity of God's perfect plan.
This will be my last post in this matter, because I do not want to seem argumentative in any way. I truly hope that I will see in Heaven one day.
***
I appreciate the reply. I just don't see things the same way. As long as you reply in a spirit of love, I don't mind if you continue to reply. For if you are speaking the truth, it does need to get out there despite my thoughts.
I don't believe that I have taken out a "few scriptures" to prove my point. I went into the book of Acts to see every instance of the arrival of the Spirit. I didn't ignore any because it didn't line up with what I believed. I tried to come to what I believe as a result of looking at the whole of the book of Acts. Maybe that was too narrow, but I think what I understood through the teaching of Acts can't be swayed by verses in other places. It seemed pretty clear that the Holy Spirit came at various times through various actions. I feel that those who believe baptism is the point of the arrival of the Holy Spirit have to ignore verses to prove their point. It seems that I was doing the exact opposite. I'm not going to ignore any verse. I showed that the arrival of the Holy Spirit happened through all different circumstances. It couldn't be narrowed to just baptism if I was dealing with the Scriptures in a way that I felt was honest.
I believe we will see one another in heaven some day if we are both surrenedered to God and living for him. Just because we have been baptized doesn't mean that we are surrendered.
Watch out for the potholes.
Baptism Now Saves You
Someone anonymous commented. Despite being an anonymous comment, I will answer this in good faith.
"I am glad that I am not God and I am glad that I am not going to have to listen to everyone's excuses for not obeying what His word says.
Read I Peter 3:21 ...if baptism is not essential then please explain this verse to all of us......."
We share the same practice. We just do it for different reason. I still encourage people to be baptized. I even concede that it does play a role in salvation. It appears to be done throughout Acts at any conversion. However, it is not the moment of conversion in many of the stories in Acts that I cited. I think it is detrimental to emphasize baptism over the heart. Or for that matter and of the actions in Acts which brought about a change of the heart.
1 Peter 3:18-22 - 18 For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit; 19 in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison, 20 who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water. 21 Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you--not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience--through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who is at the right hand of God, having gone into heaven, after angels and authorities and powers had been subjected to Him.
I actually find it amazing that a verse that actually seems to speak out that it isn't the water baptism that saves us is used frequently in defense of water baptism saving us.
All of the examples I cited in Acts yesterday, show that the Holy Spirit can come at any time. This verse says "baptism now saves you--not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience." It fits in with my proposed explanation yesterday. It is the state of one's heart that saves us. When our heart surrenders to God, that is when we are saved. It might happen at the point of laying on of hands, hearing the message, being baptized, or various other times. Salvation coming isn't limited to a formula or a recipe, it is only limited by hardened hearts. When our heart opens up, when we appeal to God for a good conscience, that is the baptism that matters. The water baptism is for the community of believers and for us to have a concrete point in our past to look at.
The baptism that is associated with an appeal to God for a good conscience is the one that saves us. It is the heart, and not the action, that saves us through the resurrection of Jesus.
Please, Mr. or Mrs. Anonymous, I request that you give me an explanation on how all of those verses I shared yesterday show that baptism is the moment of our salvation.
And I do believe that we can disagree on this and be brothers or sisters in Christ. I hope you believe the same. If not, we should probably stop having this conversation.
Watch out for the potholes.
"I am glad that I am not God and I am glad that I am not going to have to listen to everyone's excuses for not obeying what His word says.
Read I Peter 3:21 ...if baptism is not essential then please explain this verse to all of us......."
We share the same practice. We just do it for different reason. I still encourage people to be baptized. I even concede that it does play a role in salvation. It appears to be done throughout Acts at any conversion. However, it is not the moment of conversion in many of the stories in Acts that I cited. I think it is detrimental to emphasize baptism over the heart. Or for that matter and of the actions in Acts which brought about a change of the heart.
1 Peter 3:18-22 - 18 For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit; 19 in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison, 20 who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water. 21 Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you--not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience--through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who is at the right hand of God, having gone into heaven, after angels and authorities and powers had been subjected to Him.
I actually find it amazing that a verse that actually seems to speak out that it isn't the water baptism that saves us is used frequently in defense of water baptism saving us.
All of the examples I cited in Acts yesterday, show that the Holy Spirit can come at any time. This verse says "baptism now saves you--not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience." It fits in with my proposed explanation yesterday. It is the state of one's heart that saves us. When our heart surrenders to God, that is when we are saved. It might happen at the point of laying on of hands, hearing the message, being baptized, or various other times. Salvation coming isn't limited to a formula or a recipe, it is only limited by hardened hearts. When our heart opens up, when we appeal to God for a good conscience, that is the baptism that matters. The water baptism is for the community of believers and for us to have a concrete point in our past to look at.
The baptism that is associated with an appeal to God for a good conscience is the one that saves us. It is the heart, and not the action, that saves us through the resurrection of Jesus.
Please, Mr. or Mrs. Anonymous, I request that you give me an explanation on how all of those verses I shared yesterday show that baptism is the moment of our salvation.
And I do believe that we can disagree on this and be brothers or sisters in Christ. I hope you believe the same. If not, we should probably stop having this conversation.
Watch out for the potholes.
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